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| | Hey, lots of interesting ideas for the item pages. I am moving it here for now and replacing it with the current "template" for items. I am definitely open to improving this and adding some of the elements you have on this page, but let's think more about them first (and how we would update all existing item pages to such a new format). --[[User:Ravhin|Ravhin]] 15:55, 7 November 2011 (UTC) | | Hey, lots of interesting ideas for the item pages. I am moving it here for now and replacing it with the current "template" for items. I am definitely open to improving this and adding some of the elements you have on this page, but let's think more about them first (and how we would update all existing item pages to such a new format). --[[User:Ravhin|Ravhin]] 15:55, 7 November 2011 (UTC) |
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| − | == Proposed Item Page Changes ==
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| − | ''Sorry about the UNIQ... corruption of the section names, it will go away once we delete the AuctionTracker from this page.''
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| − | Thanks for writing up your thoughts, I agree with most of them. Let's separate out style from content first though.
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| − | === Content ===
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| − | In particular, all of your points under "lacking information" are already considered. For example: [[Short Beer]].
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| − | Currently, the categories of information included with [[Template:Itempage]] are:
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| − | * Notes (can be anything)
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| − | * Drops from which mobs
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| − | * Related to/used in which quests
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| − | * Player crafted (which tradeskill, trivial)
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| − | * Used in player tradeskils (which tradeskills)
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| − | * Foraged by players (in which zones)
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| − | * Sold by merchants (name,zone,location)
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| − | * Book contents (if a book)
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| − | Is there something missing from this list that you can think of that would be useful?
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| − | === Style ===
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| − | 1. Lack of section setup (lack of "edit" buttons on each section).
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| − | I agree, this is a technical difficulty I ran into with using a template. In fact I disabled the "edit button on each section" for item pages because clicking it leads you nowhere useful and can making editing extremely frustrating. For example, I did not remove it on mob pages, see [[Ambassador DVinn]] and what happens if you try to edit the Description (it takes you in to edit the template). If you know of a solution for this I will fix it.
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| − | Reference: [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help_talk:Templates#Included_Titles_Cannot_Be_Edited_by_Subsection]
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| − | Also, the fact that it is "template code" instead of just wiki markup that people may be more familiar with is unfortunate. But I don't know how to use templates without doing it this way? If you have some reference I am happy to look into it.
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| − | 2. Not including sections for which there is no information.
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| − | For example, [[Small Bronze Helm]] does not include a "sold by merchants" section at all because it is not sold by merchants. I agree it would make things look more consistent if the same section were present on every page, but then again some are almost always mutually exclusive - what is sold is rarely dropped by mobs, for instance. Furthermore, the classic Allakhazam approach has been what we have used here, not including sections that are "empty", for instance [http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=14540] does not have any mention of merchants or quests.
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| − | On this point I'm not sure which is better to be honest.
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| − | 3. Auction pricing too big.
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| − | I designed this with a widescreen (1920) screen in mind, in which case it looks good I think. I agree on a (1680) screen it is a bit big. Make it 100px less wide?
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| − | 4. Double column.
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| − | I agree if we are including enough sections.
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| − | 5. "Make a new page" button.
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| − | Is there a link to a wiki showing how this would work? In general I agree with the philosophy [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Starting_a_new_page here] which states, in short, that the best to create a new page is to first create a "red" link to it, because a page that isn't linked to is pointless.
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| − | === Example ===
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| − | Just a quick try at what the current item page for [[Small Bronze Helm]] might look like including all categories.
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| − | <div style='margin:20px;padding:10px;border:1px dashed #c99;'>
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| − | {{Itembox
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| − | |itemname = Small Bronze Helm
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| − | |lucy_img_ID = 550
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| − | |statsblock =
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| − | Slot: HEAD<br>
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| − | AC: 10<br>
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| − | WT: 5.6 Size: SMALL<br>
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| − | Class: WAR CLR PAL SHD BRD<br>
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| − | Race: ELF HIE DEF DWF HFL GNM<br>
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| − | Slot 1, Type 7 (General: Group)<br>
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| − | }}
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| − | Part of the ''small'' [[Bronze Armor]] set.
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| − | == Drops From ==
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| − |
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| − | {| width="60%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="2"
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| − | |- style="background:#ffdead;"
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| − | ! width="35%" |Name
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| − | ! width="15%" |Level
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| − | ! width="60%" |Zone
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| − | |- style="background:#e3e6ff;" valign="top"
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| − | | [[a ghastish ancille]]
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| − | | 40
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| − | | [[Mistmoore Castle]]
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| − | |- style="background:#e3e6ff;" valign="top"
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| − | | [[a ghoulish ancille]]
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| − | | 45
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| − | | [[Mistmoore Castle]]
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| − | |- style="background:#e3e6ff;" valign="top"
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| − | | [[a hemo enologist]]
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| − | | 40
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| − | | [[Mistmoore Castle]]
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| − | |- style="background:#e3e6ff;" valign="top"
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| − | | [[a hemo enologist]]
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| − | | 37
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| − | | [[Mistmoore Castle]]
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| − | |- style="background:#e3e6ff;" valign="top"
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| − | | [[a vampiric ancille]]
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| − | | 37
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| − | | [[Mistmoore Castle]]
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| − | |- style="background:#e3e6ff;" valign="top"
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| − | | [[an ancille cook]]
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| − | | 30
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| − | | [[Mistmoore Castle]]
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| − | |- style="background:#e3e6ff;" valign="top"
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| − | | [[a barbed bone skeleton]]
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| − | | 27
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| − | | [[The Estate of Unrest]]
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| − | |- style="background:#e3e6ff;" valign="top"
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| − | | [[a greater dark bone]]
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| − | | 30
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| − | | [[The Estate of Unrest]]
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| − | |- style="background:#e3e6ff;" valign="top"
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| − | | [[an undead knight of Unrest]]
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| − | | 30
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| − | | [[The Estate of Unrest]]
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| − | |- style="background:#e3e6ff;" valign="top"
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| − | | [[a barbed bone skeleton]]
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| − | | 33
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| − | | [[Rathe Mountains]]
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| − | |}
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| − | == Sold By ==
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| − | {| class="eoTable3 sortable" style='width:60%;'
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| − | ! Zone || Merchant Name || Area || Location
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| − | {{ItemWhereRow | [[Ak'Anon]] | [[a clockwork barkeep]] | Bank | (1252, -946) }}
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| − | {{ItemWhereRow | [[Cabilis|East Cabilis]] | [[Klok Sass]] | Cleric Guild | (667, -38) }}
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| − | {{ItemWhereRow | [[West Commonlands]] | [[Innkeep Seke]] | Inn #2 | (-104, 465) }}
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| − | {{ItemWhereRow | [[West Commonlands]] | [[Innkeep Roster]] | Inn #3 | (-149, 452) }}
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| − | {{ItemWhereRow | [[West Commonlands]] | [[Innkeep Redthorn]] | Map #6 | (-401, 2763) }}
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| − | {{ItemWhereRow | [[West Commonlands]] | [[Innkeep Olissa]] | Bank 2nd Floor | (-384, 2714) }}
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| − | |}
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| − | == <span class='esec'>Related Quests</span> ==
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| − | * <span class='esec'>This item has no related quests.</span>
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| − | == <span class='esec'>Player Crafted</span> ==
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| − | * <span class='esec'>This item is not crafted by players.</span>
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| − | == <span class='esec'>Tradeskill Recipes</span> ==
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| − | * <span class='esec'>This item is not used in player tradeskills.</span>
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| − | == <span class='esec'>Foraged In</span> ==
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| − | * <span class='esec'>This item cannot be foraged.</span>
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| − | </div>
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| − | == Item Page Changes ==
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| − | I changed the ItemPage template so that the categories always appear and are slightly grayed out if they are "empty."
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| − | I changed the AuctionTracker from 600px wide to 500px so it's not quite so big.
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| − | Also the tables for the "Drops From" section just like the "Sold By" section - I agree when it drops from lots of mobs but usually (like [[Runed Falchion]]) items drop from only one mob in one zone...
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| − | --[[User:Ravhin|Ravhin]] 17:58, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
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| − | --
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| − | I changed the background colors of the alternating rows for the tables to make them slightly darker / more color.
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| − | You are of course free to add new pages but they have to stick to the templates, because there are several pages that expect those pages to be in a certain format.
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| − | I would recommend you use the utilities here to add new pages: http://www.destinati.com/project1999wiki/wikiUtils.php
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| − | I will have to think about a script to change the "Drops From" category into a table like the "Sold By" category, it will probably be a bit.
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| − | --[[User:Ravhin|Ravhin]] 02:47, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
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| − | :::(Transcluded from my Talk): I know Wikinews has a [http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Water_cooler Water Cooler] where people discuss enhancements/changes. [[User:Maximum|Maximum]] 19:38, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
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| − | == Wiki Templates ==
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| − | I think you're confused about what the "utilities" do. They aren't the templates, they are scripts that parse other websites and return information in the form expected by the templates.
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| − | All the templates can be found here: [[Special:MostLinkedTemplates]]
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| − | The "move suggested" template is fine but if it is a move that is in agreement with the naming conventions of the wiki then you can just move it. This isn't Wikipedia - there aren't hundreds of editors that want to debate all the minute wiki-related details - there are probably only 20 pages on the entire wiki with discussion pages. --[[User:Ravhin|Ravhin]] 20:36, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
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| − | == Recent Additions and Loot Tables ==
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| − | Thanks for all the recent additions, really getting some things filled in. It would be good if you were slightly more cautious adding things you haven't verified in game.
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| − | As you pointed out you found a lot of mobs with the same loot table - this is a post-post-Classic generic EQEmu thing which doesn't exist on p99.
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| − | For example all this Kyv stuff is Gates of Discord era (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=53668). Also the high end gems like [[Blue Diamond]] do not actually drop off these mobs.
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| − | What you should do: if you see this kind of generic loot table (you'll recognize it quickly) it is better to erase it all and put only "Unknown" or "None?". Often, though, there is 1-2 real drops in there and the rest are the normal fake stuff. You will start to recognize them soon enough and can filter them out. Also, you should add the [[Template:Unconfirmed Itemlist]] template to any (all) mob loot tables or merchant sell tables you'd not sure about, like [[Nexona]].
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| − | Finally, in terms of all these redirects to the same page with different capitalization. It's fine if you want to add these I guess but you should read this: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Case_sensitivity_of_page_names. --[[User:Ravhin|Ravhin]] 15:16, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
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| − | ---
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| − | Just to be clear, if you see this sequence of items you should delete it all and replace it by "None":
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| − | * Sapphire
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| − | * Blue Diamond
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| − | * Semi Precious Stone Chunk
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| − | * Enameled Gargoyle Eye
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| − | * Flake of Gold Leaf
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| − | * Pile of Gravel
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| − | * Lupine Runed Armband
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| − | * Serpent Insignia Collar
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| − | * Ethereal Parchment
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| − | * Kyv String
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| − | * Kyv Cam
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| − | * Symbol of the Kyv
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| − | * Kyv Balm
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| − | * Kyv Bow
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| − | I am deleting the non-classic items now so they won't be linked by default in the scraper. --[[User:Ravhin|Ravhin]] 15:28, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
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| − | == NPC Pictures ==
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| − | Also, if all allakhazaam has is a Luclin-era model picture, just skip it and added the [[Template:Screenshot Needed]] template. Better to have no picture than a "false" picture, so to speak. --[[User:Ravhin|Ravhin]] 15:16, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
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| | == Adding Merchants == | | == Adding Merchants == |
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| | If you add a merchant whose item list is empty you shouldn't just add it, at least add a note that you don't yet know what is sold, otherwise people might be confused that the merchant actually sells nothing. | | If you add a merchant whose item list is empty you shouldn't just add it, at least add a note that you don't yet know what is sold, otherwise people might be confused that the merchant actually sells nothing. |
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| − | Also I think some things you're adding (like [[Scribe Biddlegorb]] which I deleted) don't actually exist on p99? I realize you aren't going around to all these things you're adding, and thats ok, but it is important to be careful to only add classic content. Perhaps stick to areas you are familiar with or exploring currently with your character. | + | Also I think some things you're adding (like Scribe Biddlegorb which I deleted) don't actually exist on p99? I realize you aren't going around to all these things you're adding, and thats ok, but it is important to be careful to only add classic content. Perhaps stick to areas you are familiar with or exploring currently with your character. |
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| | Otherwise, thanks for all the additions! Nice to fill in lots of the missing pages. --[[User:Ravhin|Ravhin]] 07:58, 22 December 2011 (UTC) | | Otherwise, thanks for all the additions! Nice to fill in lots of the missing pages. --[[User:Ravhin|Ravhin]] 07:58, 22 December 2011 (UTC) |
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| | Whenever I look at the recent changes your submissions are ubiquitous, cheers! | | Whenever I look at the recent changes your submissions are ubiquitous, cheers! |
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| − | == Capitalization and Naming Conventions == | + | == DynamicZoneList == |
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| − | I've been going through your additions (slowly, I am quite behind) and cleaning them up. Most look good, just have the following comments:
| + | Hey, all your additions encouraged me to make a new extension which was in the plan the whole time. Now it may actually be interesting as more content is added. |
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| − | 1. For NPCs with the loot list including "Kyv" stuff you should delete it all and replace it by "None".
| + | You can see it at the bottom of [[Ak'Anon]]. Let me know if you have any more ideas or suggestions! |
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| − | 2. For quest pages which are identically named to an item in the ItemDB then the new name becomes "ItemName Quest". For example, [[Aegis of Life]] and [[Aegis of Life Quest]]. I saw you did a few like "ItemName (Quest)" but this will break the existing convention, so all existing links (and new links from the scraper) will point towards a page that doesn't exist.
| + | The point is to include a complete list of quests, NPCs, and items for each zone (just like allakhazam) - the lists are generated automatically based on pages on the wiki which have the right categories. |
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| − | 3. Capitalization is similar. [[a goblin]] should really be "a goblin" but the wiki software is stupid and makes it "A goblin". I agree "A Goblin" looks better, maybe. But all existing and future quest,NPC,faction,item pages will use the capitalization as it exists '''ingame, or in the DB.''' If you want to make a redirect from "A Goblin" to "a goblin" thats fine, but the page "a goblin" needs exist to make things link up.
| + | I am going to run a script to add zone categories to all items, then I will finish the item part, and then add it to more zones. --[[User:Ravhin|Ravhin]] 05:33, 9 January 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | 4. I just saw you made a bunch of faction page redirects. Just a note that all faction pages do (should) exist already, you just have to find the right spelling/capitalization/spaces when adding a new NPC/quest. Usually the scraper does this mostly ok. There are a few duplicates now I'll erase, like DeepPockets and Deeppockets. You can always check the list at [[:Category:Factions]] to find the spelling the wiki uses.
| + | == Discussion Page == |
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| − | 5. When adding merchants or mobs with drop lists that you aren't sure about it's a good idea to add the '''<nowiki>{{Unconfirmed Itemlist}}</nowiki>''' template, like I did for [[Aanina Rockfinder]]. It can't be guaranteed that the scraper has the lists 100% right, but it's easy for someone to check a merchant and then remove that note.
| + | I moved a lot of stuff from talk pages and organized it some on [[Help talk:Contents]]. We can use that in the future for discussions. --[[User:Ravhin|Ravhin]] 16:10, 27 January 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | I also agree the "How to Obtain" section for items would be good. I will try to do this, for now if "Related Quests" contains lots of quests maybe just make a note in the "notes" section which quest has that item as the reward. --[[User:Ravhin|Ravhin]] 21:16, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
| + | ---- |
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| − | == Redirects, Spell Pages, Editing Sections ==
| + | Glad to see you back man. The wiki is really looking good these days. Feel free to start any discussions for changes on [[Help talk:Contents]] - you know I worked with you to change the item pages a bit, etc. Let me explain why I seem to delete or change lots of things: With you adding so much content one of the main things I am trying to do is keep it accurate, complete, consistent, even "compact" / "neat". I try to keep all of the maintenance lists at a minimum (they should all be empty), stuff like: |
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| − | Hey, I agree about the redirects, I'll put those instead of deleting a page from now on.
| + | * [[Special:BrokenRedirects]] |
| | + | * [[Special:DeadendPages]] |
| | + | * [[Special:DoubleRedirects]] |
| | + | * [[Special:LonelyPages]] |
| | + | * [[Special:UnusedTemplates]] |
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| − | I had decided that we should not add the spell "scroll" pages, like [[Spell: Illusion: Air Elemental]]. They don't have any additional information beyond the "spell" pages, like [[Illusion: Air Elemental]], which in fact have much more accurate info about where to purchase them. For spells which are mob drop those drops were modified extensively here on p99 so that information is incorrect anyways. I'll probably delete those few you added a few days ago unless you object.
| + | In terms of a "big goal", what I am trying to do is get this list to absolutely zero: '''[[Special:WantedPages]]'''. When I started working on the wiki that page got up to ~1000 then I got it down to only a few hundred (by both adding content and making sure that all the pages were properly linked up and not having bad links, inconsistent links, etc). Now that page is up to '''4115'''! So when I delete or condense things I am just trying to clean up that list, working towards our goal here of making this wiki complete. --[[User:Ravhin|Ravhin]] 01:32, 29 January 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | I also made a modification to the source code so that you can click on "Edit" on a section and it now takes you to edit the page instead of trying to edit the template (which resulted in the permissions error). This works on NPCs,spells. I disabled the "edit" link on items some how, I will turn it back on. Unfortunately it doesn't edit just that section, but instead edits the entire page. There isn't really anyway around this since they aren't actually sections, just template parameters. --[[User:Ravhin|Ravhin]] 16:16, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
| + | == Multi-Pages == |
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| − | == DynamicZoneList ==
| + | Hey I know you were interested in pages to handle mobs (or items) with the same name. What do you think about [[http://wiki.project1999.org/index.php/Shaped_Ashwood_Recurve_Bow]]? It's about as simple an approach as possible, where for each one you just add some sort of qualifier in parenthesis, e.g. "an orc pawn (East Commonlands)" "an orc pawn (Greater Faydark)". |
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| − | Hey, all your additions encouraged me to make a new extension which was in the plan the whole time. Now it may actually be interesting as more content is added.
| + | Not that I'm suggesting we go crazy and get into so much detail right now, but it might be nice to have a rule in place. --[[User:Ravhin|Ravhin]] 02:18, 13 February 2012 (UTC) |
| − | | + | |
| − | You can see it at the bottom of [[Ak'Anon]]. Let me know if you have any more ideas or suggestions!
| + | |
| − | | + | |
| − | The point is to include a complete list of quests, NPCs, and items for each zone (just like allakhazam) - the lists are generated automatically based on pages on the wiki which have the right categories.
| + | |
| − | | + | |
| − | I am going to run a script to add zone categories to all items, then I will finish the item part, and then add it to more zones. --[[User:Ravhin|Ravhin]] 05:33, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
| + | |
Hey, lots of interesting ideas for the item pages. I am moving it here for now and replacing it with the current "template" for items. I am definitely open to improving this and adding some of the elements you have on this page, but let's think more about them first (and how we would update all existing item pages to such a new format). --Ravhin 15:55, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Hey, I fixed a bug in the merchant scraper which was causing all the item lists to be "None." Now they are put in correctly.
If you add a merchant whose item list is empty you shouldn't just add it, at least add a note that you don't yet know what is sold, otherwise people might be confused that the merchant actually sells nothing.
Also I think some things you're adding (like Scribe Biddlegorb which I deleted) don't actually exist on p99? I realize you aren't going around to all these things you're adding, and thats ok, but it is important to be careful to only add classic content. Perhaps stick to areas you are familiar with or exploring currently with your character.
Otherwise, thanks for all the additions! Nice to fill in lots of the missing pages. --Ravhin 07:58, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Hey, all your additions encouraged me to make a new extension which was in the plan the whole time. Now it may actually be interesting as more content is added.
The point is to include a complete list of quests, NPCs, and items for each zone (just like allakhazam) - the lists are generated automatically based on pages on the wiki which have the right categories.
I am going to run a script to add zone categories to all items, then I will finish the item part, and then add it to more zones. --Ravhin 05:33, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Glad to see you back man. The wiki is really looking good these days. Feel free to start any discussions for changes on Help talk:Contents - you know I worked with you to change the item pages a bit, etc. Let me explain why I seem to delete or change lots of things: With you adding so much content one of the main things I am trying to do is keep it accurate, complete, consistent, even "compact" / "neat". I try to keep all of the maintenance lists at a minimum (they should all be empty), stuff like:
In terms of a "big goal", what I am trying to do is get this list to absolutely zero: Special:WantedPages. When I started working on the wiki that page got up to ~1000 then I got it down to only a few hundred (by both adding content and making sure that all the pages were properly linked up and not having bad links, inconsistent links, etc). Now that page is up to 4115! So when I delete or condense things I am just trying to clean up that list, working towards our goal here of making this wiki complete. --Ravhin 01:32, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
Hey I know you were interested in pages to handle mobs (or items) with the same name. What do you think about [[1]]? It's about as simple an approach as possible, where for each one you just add some sort of qualifier in parenthesis, e.g. "an orc pawn (East Commonlands)" "an orc pawn (Greater Faydark)".
Not that I'm suggesting we go crazy and get into so much detail right now, but it might be nice to have a rule in place. --Ravhin 02:18, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
